CodeIgniter: What happens next?

Posted: 2010-10-27
Category: CodeIgniter

Update 31/01/2011: Things have changed a great deal since this article was written and now CodeIgniter 2.0 is released with Reactor (a community powered branch) being considered the default version of CodeIgniter. I am very happy with CodeIgniter, but this article may suggest otherwise. I'll leave it up as an explanation of problems at one point in CodeIgniter's life-time.

Times have been hard for the developers of CodeIgniter - EllisLab and they have addressed this in a few ways: A spot on the ExpressionEngine Podcast, a few articles explaining the future of EllisLab and ExpressionEngine and how they plan to take things forward. Sadly, as always us CodeIgniter developers have been left with not much more than a nod and a pat on the head.

This most recent pat came in the form of What's Happening Now? which is the CodeIgniter branch of their acknowledgements to the recent article "A Plea to EllisLab". Kenny's article was extremely well written and got a lot of attention from the ExpressionEngine community about the issues at EllisLab. They responded with "I hear You" and went onto the EE Podcast #33 but the response for the CodeIgniter community is much less useful.

I asked EllisLab to post an article to address the CodeIgniter community but the result left me feeling a bit cold.

CodeIgniter has always been born from ExpressionEngine ... to gauge what’s happening with CodeIgniter, you can often look to ExpressionEngine.

So not much then? New features for ExpressionEngine very rarely directly benefit CodeIgniter any more as the entire CMS is backported and squeezed on top of the framework. It has so many extended and overridden libraries calling EE a CI application is like calling Frankenstein an average bloke.

...we will be actively working on communicating short and long term plans for the framework to you...

This has been said repeatedly since EECI2009 with nothing done about it. Just put up a page with a rough list of Roadmap features. People have no idea what is happening in the future of CodeIgniter and they want to know.

We are still interviewing for the open Software Engineer position to expand our team, which will make it easier for us to allocate real resources to CodeIgniter development.

There are thousands of users ready to expand the team for free on BitBucket and plenty more who would join if they thought it would achieve anything. It took 3 years for my FTP::download() function to get merged into the core, how could I possibly hope to get something like Migrations in there, even though plenty of people want it and many other features?

So what is happening to the CodeIgniter Community?

People are getting fed up. For a community that has already been waiting almost 14 months for an update, we don't have that much to look forward to. Although CodeIgniter 2 is stable enough to use in production there is not that much in there that is really new and exciting. That might not have been such a problem 5/6 months ago when we thought it would be out soon as everybody expected to be salivating over a 2.1 feature-set by now, but we are in the same position we were in back then with no assurances that it will be any different in another 6 months. Because of this I am noticing quite a serious brain-drain of developers using CodeIgniter which has got much worse over the last few weeks.

Let's have a look at who has left EllisLab in the last month:

Two very skilled developers who had a big impact on CodeIgniter and MojoMotor (another one of Ellis' products). Two people alone might not make much difference but I can think of several other skilled developers who have left CodeIgniter or are considering it. They are currently working on CodeIgniter forks, are building new frameworks themselves or are just giving up and learning Rails. Why? Because there is no excitement left in CodeIgniter anymore.

What does that mean for the community?

The appeal of CodeIgniter over other frameworks has always been the community and the documentation. Based on the people who are talking about leaving, the IRC channel is going to be basically empty and the forums will have hardly any useful responses.

If people aren't careful or new members in the community don't step forward to support the new users, one of the two main reasons for people to come to CodeIgniter will be gone.

What is next for me?

I have a few fun things in the works. I've been learning Ruby recently and I'll be getting into the Ramaze framework. This is not a response to my feelings about CI, just something I have wanted to do for a while.

The most exciting thing is a funky little framework called Fuel that Dan Horrigan and myself have been working on over the last few days. It will essentially be some of the best ideas behind Kohana mixed with some of the logical simplicity of CodeIgniter. HMVC thought-out, migrations in the core and everything autoloaded. It is too soon to announce anything just yet, but it will definitely be worth keeping an eye on.

Something I have to stress is that this doesn't mean I'll be leaving CodeIgniter for good. PyroCMS runs CodeIgniter 2.0 and that project is still moving forwards with great pace. I'll also be doing what I can to get people together for CICON2011 EU, UK and US (website coming soon) but I won't be doing a whole lot of anything else in CodeIgniter.

I just need something more interesting to develop with; CodeIgniter is too simple and adverse to change to provide anything new and interesting for experienced PHP developers.

Comments

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Gareth Thompson

2010-10-27

God damn this is annoying!

Codeigniter has such huge potential as many developers looking to utilise a decent framework often end up using it. The main seller for me was the incredibly open and easy to understand user guide. It's a doddle to get up and running with and doesn't require you to fill your brain with complicated syntax.

I wish EllisLab would wake up and realise that Codeigniter should be given some dedication, support and a sound future!

Look forward to seeing how Fuel goes. If you want any help writing equally amazing documentation give me a shout.

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Mark Perkins

2010-10-27

I have to say I agree... I used to be pretty excited by CodeIgniter, and the excellent documentation made it really easy to get started and build stuff with. But, as you describe, I've felt that excitement ebb away as things have resolutely failed to move on at any sort of reasonable pace.

Unless it's opened up to make outside contribution both easy and fulfilling (in the lieu of any serious development internally by Ellislab) I'm pretty sure that any community that still exists around CI will fall away pretty quickly.

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Zack Kitzmiller

2010-10-27

You and I have discussed before, and you know that these are my exact feelings. CI is as feature stale as Tweetie for Mac.

And honestly, this makes me sad. I have built endless projects on CI, and have been an evangelist for the project since I started using it two+ years ago. The real kick in the ass came with EECI's exclusion of CodeIgniter content at EECI2010us.

But I'm not going to be developing with CI anymore, with the exception of current clients, of course. I'm going to be sticking with PHP, but most likely using a smaller PHP5 framework like Fuel, or something of my own.

Well done, EllisLab.

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Kenny Meyers

2010-10-27

Hey now, I gave a CodeIgniter talk.

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Happy Chap

2010-10-27

Hi,

I'm less experienced than you guys and having only been using CodeIgniter for just over 12 months or so, I've been head down in building projects using CI, so I've not really been aware of the issues that have been going on at Ellis Labs (other than frustration that there's no longer anyway to play with EE, so you never get to the stage of being proficient enough to actually use it on a project) but I'm really disheartened by the diminishing enthusiasm for CI. Yes, there are other frameworks and sure, it's had it's share of bugs, but I really, really like it.

I've found it not only accelerated my development time but, perhaps more importantly for a very small studio, the way I can come back to an application I built over 12 months ago and pretty much instantly get back upto speed with the code is the biggest benefit I've experienced. Maybe other frameworks offer the same, I don't know, but for me the discipline of the CI MVC model and syntax has paid huge dividends.

I really hope that things pick up with CI. As Gareth says, CI has such huge potential, and is so well documented, it deserves to thrive, not be strangled.

HC.

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Amit Singh

2010-10-27

I have also thinking for sometime that may it is time to move on form CI to a framework which is more ready with changes is PHP itself, and i am going to keep an eye on fuel.

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Adam Fairholm

2010-10-27

Very, very well said.

I got into CodeIgniter in January 2008, and I've been building sites with it since then. I'm very invested in seeing it succeed and move forward.

The key phrase I think in all of this is "there is no excitement left in CodeIgniter anymore".

The kind of people who love something like CodeIgniter like to see things grow and take part in that growth. Why else would a major part of our jobs be taking part in code repositories where every little piece of progress is recorded and filed away?

Developers are junkies for incremental progress that doesn't move so fast as to be irrational, but fast enough to adapt and test thoroughly.

As I look at CodeIgniter's home page - very little has changed since I opened it up in early 2008. That's not necessarily bad, but for a community that gets excitement from change and improvement over time, it is an indication that the love is gone.

I really, really, really wish it weren't true, but I'm not surprised.

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Jaycreations

2010-10-27

I've been using CI for almost 2 years now. I've built 2 big projects on it and loved using it. I was going to take a look at 2.0 and start working on it but after reading this, I've lost some hope. CI's been sitting on 1.7.2 for who knows how long. Reminds me of SMF in a way.

I'm going to take a look at Fuel. I want something lightweight and part of the reason why I've avoided Cake.

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Kamil Grzegorczyk

2010-10-27

I feel the same. When I first started working with code igniter nearly a year ago I was pretty excited. Now thigs are the same. Iam lworking now with usage of 2.0 version which is being announced for many months...and it is coming and coming... and this is pretty the same as 1.7.2

The pace of changes is too low.

On the CI forums more interesting discussions are from many months ago. Now when I try to discuss something I cant find satysfying answer.

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Nedu

2010-10-27

*Sigh*

"....just some things I have wanted to do for a while" once upon a time codeigniter was one of those things for me, then I fell in love. Now the love waxes cold and have a list of new things I have wanted to do for a while.

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Chris

2010-10-27

Yeah, I agree with most of what has been said.

I recently downloaded and took a look at CI2 and was underwhelmed. Originally I was psyched because we were told that whatever EE2 needed CI would get, but I don't see it. It's possible I'm missing something, but I just don't see that much new coming in 2.0. :(

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Don Allen

2010-10-27

The writing is on the wall. Derek and Dan leaving are a sign of things to come. Also of interest: read the blog posts by Derek and Dan when they announced their resignation from EllisLab. Both say they don't like the direction the company is going.

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Derek Jones

2010-10-27

I guess this is a situation of where you read from an article what you are looking to get out of it. Or is it just to self-aggrandize with Dan, whose role at EllisLab, by the way, is being incredibly overstated? That said, it's worth mentioning some of CI's stated reasons for existing, which are as true today as they were at version 1.0 when first openly defined: small footprint, no large-scale libraries, broad compatibility, exceptional performance, and simplicity over complexity. If that's not what you as a developer are looking for, then yes, a different framework might be the right option for you.

There's nothing wrong with that, but CodeIgniter is not going to pull away from those philosophies, because those priorities remain important to us and to thousands of other PHP programmers. A few have been quick to say that CI is dying or that they're already ready to start using a framework that isn't even a shipping product. It's noteworthy that the most prominent of these voices have an axe to grind with EllisLab, or due to lack of integrity or responsibility have lost association with the company. So I encourage readers to weigh their words carefully with full context.

[Redacted under request from EllisLab]

Stay classy, Phil.

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2010-10-27

Happy Chap: Of course I think CodeIgniter is a brilliant framework, better than any PHP framework out there by a long shot for many reasons I won't get into here. If any of the existing frameworks were better I would be using them, this is why I'll be working on Fuel to combine the simplicity of CodeIgniter with other features.

Derek Jones: I'm not sure what you were getting at in the last paragraph, but this framework will be the base for several commercial products. We aren't doing this for poops and giggles, we're doing this to make a better framework. I'll still be using CodeIgniter for a long time as PyroCMS runs it and I have god knows how many client projects on it, but I'll be porting away soon unless something happens soon.

The main problem is that for a company using CodeIgniter as a base for your applications, you use it in a very different way to basically everybody else so you've ended up out of touch with a base of people trying to use this to build simple applications day in day out.

You know I have tried to help this situation but nothing gets done about it and this has been a problem for a long time. Long enough for me (and several others) to go from "CodeIgniter Evangelist" to "CodeIgniter Apologist" and finally, beyond.

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Dustin

2010-10-27

"CodeIgniter has always been born from ExpressionEngine ... to gauge what’s happening with CodeIgniter, you can often look to ExpressionEngine."

I feel like this is telling me to just buy EE.

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Dan Horrigan

2010-10-28

Derek,

You resort to personal attacks, for what? No one has attacked anyone at EllisLab personally, so why attack Me and Jamie (although I forgive you for attacking Jamie...[just kidding Jamie])? First of all, my role at EllisLab was a small one, I will be the first to say that. However, that is not from not trying. Your (and Rick's I would assume) hardheadedness towards adding things that the ENTIRE community has asked for many times, makes it impossible to get even the smallest things in.

To make sure everyone is clear, I left EL on my own will, because I was/am not happy with the way EllisLab operates (not going into specifics due to NDA).

Also in your last paragraph, you make mention of the fact that I used a name that was already taken at first because I "can't be bothered to do a basic Google search." If you look negatively upon me because I failed to do a search first, then you look negatively upon 90% of your community who can't be bothered to do a Google search or read the User Guide to get an answer to something before posting in the forums.

I love that when a respected member of the EE community writes a post bringing up issues, you guys drop what you are doing, have a meeting, release a response and spend tens of hours responding to it. However, when a respected member of the CI community does the same, you respond in a comment and on twitter bashing everyone that has an opinion against EL for the way CI is handled.

While CodeIgniter does not directly make EL money, it sure as hell indirectly makes it money. Many people use EE and MojoMotor BECAUSE it is based on CI. In-fact that was one of the major things you promoted about EE2 was that it was going to be based on CI2.

I love off the cuff gut reaction though, shows your true colors.

Dan

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Brennan Novak

2010-10-28

I am far from an expert about what goes on with the Ellis + CI community, but much of what Phil says in this post seems spot on... additionally Phil is one of the only CI dev's I've come across who has a pulse and seems to give a damn and constantly releases new and useful code. He always get's back to my (albeit, sometimes lame) questions and has built numerous open source CI libraries like Migrations, REST, UNZIP, etc... as far as my eyes see- he was one of the few trying to inject life into the CI scene. Most others seem to just be people using a a framework to ship products to clients and make money (which is fine). But, in contrast to the Rails community nobody in the CI community (even those who use it daily) seem to give a shit about CI where as all my Rails friends are fanatics about the product + the community + etc...

All that said I love the architecture, footprint, etc... the CI docs are a work of beauty- but the community needs more life in it. Giving life is not always a smooth and pretty thing- there is blood and guts and fluids spilled everywhere. Hopefully Ellis Labs will sack up and loosen their death grip.

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Brent Newton

2010-10-28

"There are thousands of users ready to expand the team for free on BitBucket and plenty more who would join if they thought it would achieve anything."

Even a guarded approach on any OS software author's part of vetting 1 or 2 community members, granting them commit rights, and giving them the responsibility of vetting a handful more community members would result in net positives for that software.

I do not presume to know the situation in this case, it may not make good business sense on the part of EllisLab to do the above. I am just a fan of Phil's work and of CodeIgniter.

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Marcel Araujo

2010-10-28

Dammit!

And now? What`s do happens to us? And the community will be "frozen" and will give up?

Look others frameworks which the community leads your developing.

I'm a codeigniter community leader in Brazil and here is a strong framework.

Bad news...

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Derek Jones

2010-10-28

Phil, you've had my ear for a long time, and I've spoken openly with you via email regularly. My response time for you is normally less than an hour, often less than 5 minutes, and in fact I conversed with you about these issues prior to my news post.

So instead of returning a professional and friendly courtesy of a followup email to me expressing your distaste or seeking clarification, which you absolutely know I would have gladly given you, you decided instead to publicly run us down, which we took personally.

Let me say regarding my last comments that a similar criticism of character, decision making, and work ethic are being aired by a few about EllisLab, and saying "EllisLab" does not mean you are not speaking about specific humans anymore. If you felt unreasonably attacked, then you now have a taste of the sting my team faces at some of the incredibly harsh complaints and occasional immature public taunts made about not only the tool that we have provided for free, but also about the people who make it. So I apologize if the comparisons were offensive; they were admittedly raised in an overly sour way, and not how I wish to communicate.

You see, what really irks us about this rant and others done in a similar tone, causing us to take it so personally, is that EllisLab has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into CodeIgniter's development, and we give it freely to the world, with one of the most liberal licenses in existence.

For people that truly enjoy CodeIgniter and get its purpose and philosophy, hopefully you will see that we answered all of the big questions last week as a company and this week for CodeIgniter specifically as to what's coming, what's been happening, and what changes are in the pipe. And we're keenly aware that now it's on us to deliver that, as the conversations on the linked podcast openly admit.

@Dan, it wasn't that you neglected to search before embarking on something that opens you to the obligations of users, it was the repeated failure that caught my attention. And it's still the case: http://www.getfuelcms.com/ (Fuel CMS, powered by CodeIgniter). It would be a shame for your hard work to land someone else in legal trouble because you didn't take the time to research this before trying to convert people to your cause.

I would like to thank everyone who was able to cut through the acerbity of the last few hours, who took the time to provide us with constructive feedback via email and chat. I'm confident about CI's future, and excited to bring to the community what we outlined yesterday. If we've lost you along the way, we wish you well in your new communities and endeavors; CodeIgniter will still be here if you need it.

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2010-10-28

Derek: You have always been quick reply to my emails and for that I am grateful, but nothing has ever really come from any of them. I have suggested several community review models, offered my services in a bunch of ways (no sex puns please :p), talked about various problems and many required changes to CI but none of them have ever happened.

This was never intended as a slant against EllisLab. You know I love CodeIgniter and have done for a bloody long time. This was purely annoyance with lack of progress and a seeming disinterest in doing anything about it. You said two weeks ago I could expect to see more commits happening soon, but it's now 15 days since the last commit.

I've had a chat with Pascal Kriete on Skype which was a little more productive than all the crazy Twitter-bashing. I am sorry that so many idiots joined in and started swearing, but my hope was that public pressure would get a more useful reaction than the "thanks but no thanks" replies I generally get over email.

Please don't mistake frustration for anger and try to avoid personal attacks, they solve nothing.

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Moonbeetle

2010-10-28

"They are currently working on CodeIgniter forks, "
Because of the liberal license EllisLab provided, else there wouldn't be something to fork to begin with. For that alone I think EllisLab deserves more respect here, and for the fact that we still can make money using CodeIgniter and that most of the time it's such a joy to work with CI. Sadly, recent events tend to overshadow this.

That said, I understand perfectly why you feel the need to move on. In fact it will be interesting to see where FUEL will end up and if it can serve as a reference point of what CI could have been if it was community owned and continuously developed.

This is what I expect from developers in general and it doesn't matter if you're building a framework, add-on or subscription based service: *Long term support*, I repeat: Long term support. That, and good documentation. That's quite a commitment these days where the expiration date of an IT product gets determined by the moment a developer "decides to get bored" with it and finds a new toy. Often forgetting that others might have based their business on their product.

Anyway, I wish FUEL all the best and look forward to the first well documented stable release. Meanwhile I'm thankful to have a tool like CodeIgniter, a comfort to know that it's still there when I need it.

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Randy Brown

2010-10-28

What's with the "there's no excitement left"? CodeIgniter isn't a girlfriend. It's a tool. Seems to be a pretty competent tool from my experience over the past couple years.

CodeIgniter was designed as a backbone of ExpressionEngine. It's never been described as anything else. So I'm surprised by the disappointment that it isn't the conglomeration of ideas some would like.

There's nothing new about developers getting antsy and moving to new platforms. But Derek said it well, "Stay classy" in how you do it.

Peace

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Dwayne

2010-10-28

Codeigniter is a simple framework. It's so simple in-fact that you can extend it easily and convert existing PHP scripts and libraries to work with Codeigniter, how many frameworks can you name that allow you to drop a PHP script not made for it and load it as a library?

If I want functionality, I'll write it myself. Codeigniter is so easy to extend and hack that I don't care if I have to write functionality for it once and know that I can use it in future products, it's worth it. Codeigniter isn't Zend, it doesn't come with the kitchen sink and use all of your servers resources.

I may be a new Codeigniter developer; but I find it pretty damn exciting. A framework that doesn't enforce strict coding conventions, lets me twist and hack it all I want, works well on shared hosting and doesn't load anything I don't want it too.

I appreciate and understand EllisLab can't devote massive amounts of hours to Codeigniter, it's a free product. EllisLab need to focus on their bread and butter projects to keep their employees paid, understand that people and don't be ungrateful.

I would like to see some native HMVC features, but honestly Modular Extensions does this awesomely already. A perfect example of just how good Codeigniter is, you can write functionality for it and not have to fear every time EllisLab update Codeigniter and everything breaking.

There isn't a feature in CI missing that I can't honestly find a third party library for or extension. Phil, Dan and others may leave, but others will pick up the gauntlet and continue carrying it.

Phil: the framework you and Dan are building that is going to be called Fuel shares the same name basically as a CMS written on-top of Codeigniter called Fuel CMS - http://getfuelcms.com/ - the naming might be a bit confusing for people. I just thought I would let you know I appreciate all of your Codeigniter contributions as well as Dans or anyone else's contributions, they've been very helpful.

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Dan Horrigan

2010-10-28

@Derek, I actually had an email conversation with the developer of Fuel CMS prior to renaming the framework to Fuel. I assured him, and everyone, that should any confusion arise between the two products that I would happily provide a prominent link on Fuel's website. So lets not all jump to the conclusions (Yes the Carbon name was a bone-head mistake).

I understand that after Fuel ships I will be expected to continue developing, bug fixing etc. That is fine. Most people don't know, I am actually being paid to write the framework, and it is required for a rather large app that I am going to be writing soon (not open-source). So to the people that think I will not finish it, you are wrong. If I don't then I can't write my app, which is thousands of dollars lost.

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2010-10-28

Guys this is not a framework war, obviously CodeIgniter is awesome especially if you are new to it. I've been using it for 4 years and nothing has changed, not even bug fixes that I submitted months ago. The only bug fixes that are ever listened to are ones that directly fix problems in ExpressionEngine and the rest are put aside.

And guys, please stop telling me about FuelCMS. I know all about it, have spoken to the guy and we have an understanding. He feels the same about CodeIgniter being stagnant and has even considered porting his CMS over to FuelPHP.

Randy Brown: How you can take Derek's side on that after the character sniping is rather confusing. He is outright rude to several people in a post that just asked for more communication, more progress and interaction with the community and their needs.

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Lola Craig

2010-10-28

I think that the discussion is not going in a right way. As a business owner, I plainly understand that Ellislabl is growing and changing the way they interact with the community. What you should understand, Phil and others, is that it's a business for them, it's not a game, and as said Derek, they spent bunch of money to give for free to the open source community an amazing framework, I don't know lots of companies which can do that, so for me there's only one word here which you should apply instead of flaming Ellislabl publically: RESPECT !

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Ed Finkler

2010-10-28

"I don't know lots of companies which can do that"

I do.

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Mikaweb

2010-10-28

Symfony is THE perfect example...

Fuel...the framework seems to be a fork of Kohana. In fact everything seems to be similar. So my question is: Why not try to approach them? They have a fantastic tool but they just need a fantastic documentation to be a must!

I'm currently using a framework develop by myself using the methodology of Kohana and that's why I'm really interested by this discussion and your new framework.

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Marcus Hodges

2010-10-28

The thing I find most surprising about the comments on this post is the defensive posture by EllisLab. It's genuinely off-putting to see a high-ranking EllisLab employee unravel in a comment thread about how to improve CodeIgniter for the people who actually use it.

When Kenny spoke out with his ExpressionEngine issues (issues which were clearly echoed throughout the EE community and ones which also exist in CodeIgniter), EllisLab was quick to work damage control, making sure EE users knew they were being heard. A plan was immediately drawn to address these concerns and EllisLab was public about it.

Then, when Derek posted to the CI blog yesterday, I for one was relieved to see them address CI, since I was concerned about it as well. I was relieved enough to post to the forum about it (and if anyone knows how much I hate the CI forums, well...). But now I'm reading Derek's reply here today and it seriously makes me want to start looking elsewhere.

EllisLab should never seem 'bothered' when any user has a suggestion, and especially not someone like Phil who has worked so hard to advance CI. I don't agree with even half of what Phil has to say most of the time, but at least he's making an effort.

The CodeIgniter.com news section has had less than 10 posts in the last year. That's less than one update a month. We absolutely do need more information from EllisLab about CI. If being criticized for not sharing that info makes them upset enough to ridicule former employees in a public place, I really worry about their integrity as a company. All Phil mentioned about Dan was his name and that he was no longer with the company, and immediately EllisLab's official retort has them running him into the ground. I don't know the guy or the circumstances of his departure, but I'm fairly sure he didn't deserve to be spoken about this way.

If CodeIgniter is supposed to be important to its users, it needs to also be important to the company behind it, whether or not they see money back from it. If it isn't important, release 2.0 and walk away, letting the community fork it as needed.

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Raym

2010-10-28

Isn't this a case of in the development community people either get bored or expect constant upgrades. I work on a number of clientprojects from
Single server instance to high traffic large scale projects. For anything requiring scale zend framework is my choice.

That said codeigniter was a great choice for smaller scale sites I was involved with. It had perfect documentation, logical mvc architecture and we still use it on a few existing,
Reasonable traffic sites. I couldn't care less about more features, you match the tools and capabilities of a framework to a project requirements. As developers we need to get out of this mindset that everything has to have a feature upgrade all the time. The only time it's critical is when the underlying technology upgrades ala php 4 to 5 etc and the requirements around code that could do for improvements.

The codeigniter I used 18 months ago I could still happily use now on the right projects and if it isn't a good fit then another tech solution will be.

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Derek Jones

2010-10-28

Marcus, you're absolute right.

Phil, Dan, and Jamie, I'm sorry for stepping out of character like that, it was not in harmony with the manner I wish to be spoken to even when I'm wrong, so it was just flat out unclassy. Please accept my apology.

Phil, I truly did think that my news post was what was needed (and what you were asking for) to see that we are fully committed to change, and soon, of how we're working on CI and utilizing community. I'll be back in touch with you privately, but again, we know that it is now on us to deliver.

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Dan Horrigan

2010-10-28

Derek, apology accepted. You are still saying that we are all wrong "it was not in harmony with the manner I wish to be spoken to even when I'm wrong," but I am just going to assume that isn't what you actually meant and just came over wrong.

Now, can we all stop this non-sense and get back to coding :)

In the words of the famous Rodney King:

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

Dan

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Derek Jones

2010-10-28

Yep, sorry Dan, that wasn't meant as a sideways dig. My intent is to convey that I have a desire and expectation of how I would want people to convey their thoughts to me whether they agree or disagree with me, and that I fell short.

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David Arnold

2010-10-28

Derek, the best response you can give people in situations like these are results. Words will always fail (especially over the internet) but action will show the whole community EllisLabs's true convictions and on the other side, failure to take action will prove threads like this to be true.

I bet if Phil (and the rest of us) read that post and then saw tons of movement in the Repo we would of been singing a different tune.

Can't wait to see some movement in CI :)

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Kirk Franklin

2010-10-28

I'm curious about what could have happened since last week's CodeIgniter 2.0 is stable (enough) post to prompt this one, since it spells out some of the reasons CodeIgniter hasn't gotten much attention. "EllisLab have been busy working on ExpressionEngine and MojoMotor while only really fixing a few CodeIgniter bug's here and there. I'd say that's fair enough right? After-all those two applications are the main bread and butter of the company. Does this mean that CodeIgniter will end up stagnating? Hell no." That was a week ago Monday; what's changed since then?

As for developers' impatience with 2.0 being released, what's keeping people from using 2.0 now? What specific features do you need that it doesn't have? I think it would be more helpful to EllisLab to be as specific as possible with needed features so they can prioritize them.

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2010-10-29

Me and Derek have had a very constructive talk over email and we are now back on the same page. This thread has inspired several changes which will benefit us all and we all have something to look forward to now. I more than anyone can understand off-the-cuff reactionary responses Hell, half of mine are done drunk!

I respect Derek a lot for his apology and I look forward to the changes that will happen. I'm looking forward to the upcoming Roadmap and I am confident we'll all see the improvements we were hoping for soon :)

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Haso Keric

2010-10-29

I would like to say thx to Phil and Dan for starting FUEL. I did look forward by January to use CI 2.0 on my Commercial Sites but.. due to FUEL and i hope it will be ready by then we will switch to FUEL.

Keep up the good work guys.

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Tom Schlick

2010-10-29

@Phil - I hope you are right about the changes! I would really like to see one or two people entrusted with committing rights so that important features and bug fixes can be fixed quickly by the community.

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Dennis Rasmussen

2010-10-29

Hi Phil,
You've probably seen me on IRC. My nick is Liquidor.
Anyway I agree with almost everything you've got to say.
I find it sad that there's almost no communication in the community.

Although I want to note that I'm currently working on a new project, that hopefully will help all the newcomers in a kick-ass way (which EllisLab is kinda missing). I love teaching, I love evolving and I'm insanely quick at learning new stuff, so that's the stuff right there.

I wish the people at EL would consider taking in some help from people that actually want to help - in any way. Really... it's not like we're inventing the wheel here. We're just making it more awesome :)

And oh geez, the CodeIgniter forums are bad.
It definitely needs some work. Active Mods, spam filters etc.

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Dennis Rasmussen

2010-10-29

Just want to point out that I'm not leaving CodeIgniter.
I'm up for alternatives for the experience, but CodeIniger is where I'm at right now.

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Boris Strahija

2010-10-29

Great news, I really hope to see some movement in the CI2 development.

And I'm waiting to see how Fuel will work out, but sticking to CI until then ;)

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Ossama Khayat

2010-10-29

I hope this comes to a good end, and wish both FUEL and CI the best.

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Gareth Thompson

2010-10-29

If people put as much effort into the forums as they did the discussion on this page, we wouldn't be in a pickle :)

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Derek Jones

2010-10-29

@Gareth, Have to agree with that one, son!

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Spicer Matthews

2010-10-29

All,

I understand the passion everyone has around CI because we all use it everyday. I too have been frustrated all the 25 million features we all want are missing from CI. What makes CI and the community around it so great is we all share our code. I have my own hand crafted version of CI based on many great libraries I have written or grabbed from Github from many of you.

Anyone that has been programing php for a while has at one point in their life built their own framework. Before I found CI I had "SpicePhp" a framework I built over the years to support my projects. It was always my plan to release the framework. I realized writing the framework was only half the battle. Documenting, advertising, supporting, and so on was way more work than the code. Needless to say SpicePhp never took off because I never took the time to do all the other things that go with releasing a framework.

Clearly CI has helped increase sales for EL just like RoR has for 37signals and I am betting EL realizes that. We have to remember EL does all the dirty work for us. I am not looking for them to add features, I can grab those features from Github. I am looking for EL document features, support features, and set standards. All the stuff that is not fun at all. Take it from EL's own words "Programmers love to code and hate to write documentation. We're no different, of course, but since documentation is as important as the code itself, we are committed to doing it."

Just remember David Heinemeier Hansson, creator of Ruby on Rails, took years before he gave commit rights to anyone else. He has a great interview somewhere on that. When you open up an open source project to everyone it gets out of control fast. He wanted to make sure the core of RoR was solid before really allowing everyone else on it.

I am sure everyone of us has thought, "I think I will start my own fork of CI", and I am betting each one of us realized how much work it really is. The great thing about the open source community is it is a market like anything else. Anyone of us can fork CI and "compete" with EL and the winner will win. So I do not blame them for making the decisions they make. It is their decisions to make.

With all that said. I do hope EL continues to be the center for CI. I do hope EL takes more support from the community over time. However, in general we all need to be internally grateful for anything anyone of us releases for free to the community.

~Spicer

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Walter Nicolau

2010-11-01

Hi All,

I have been using CI for a few months and it has been helping me with my projects immensely. I wouldn't have any problem in contributing with some donation and I guess most people would also be glad to help in that way.

Like that, EL would have some financial help to dedicate time in a regular basis to further develop the framework plus the help it already has from great developers who dedicate their time freely to help CI in many different ways.

I really hope CI will keep growing and don't get wasted and forgotten because it would definitely be a shame.

Peace.
=)

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Mike Howell

2010-11-01

Hello All,

I have been an IRC fan of CI and of Pyro ( mainly because that is where phil, zack and dan are readily available for my dumb questions ). I think what I see here is EllisLabs' idea of what CI is and what the community who use CI think of it.

@Derek I have been using CI since 1.6. I moved over from Rails development to CI. I've used plain vanilla installs and have gradually moved to making my install's very wirey ( wiredesignz + phil's DRY methods ). I see where EllisLabs' is coming from completely. I even disagree with the retort by Phil and the others where they point out that EE has extended core libraries. To me this is a feature of CI and is how it should be.

However, one thing I would like to point out that is that the pandora's box has been let loose upon the scene when you gave CI to the world. The problem is that we have pretty much a repeat of what happened with PHP-NUKE's creater wouldn't budge on community updates. What resulted was a mass exodus and code forking. I wouldn't be parading the fact that CI is fork friendly. To me their should be at least some movement to put CI as a first class FOSS project.

I understand that there is the problem of breaking things in EE, or even just the fear of doing so, to the point of keeping CI as-is. Meeting the community in the middle and just being more communicative and more active on the CI project would be a great start. Futhermore, just talking to the flaming head of the CI evangelism ( hi Phil ) isn't what I call being communcative. Having to go to Phil's site to get insight into what EL is doing is assinine. You have a blog... use it.

I'll not be moving over to Fuel until it is solid. I am not sure if I have the time to even contribute to their codebase because of life commitments. But I'll be looking into it. But I came from rails and still keep my toes in there too. But CI is what I develop and deploy on and has been for years. But I'd like to move foward with php 5.2 and position my code for 5.3 so lets get CI moving forward some?

-Mike (kayt3 on IRC)

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Coder25

2010-11-19

Hi,
So its nearly 3 weeks since the last post. What's the news about CI ? I learned about CI a few months and loved it. Unfortunately, real life got in the way and I couldn't spend much time on it. Anyways, now I have several projects in mind that I'd like to do using CI. I'm just waiting for news from them. Also, why is it still version 1.7.2 on the download page ?

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2010-11-19

Coder25: Have you seen the blog? They have announced a Roadmap is on the way and they have started picking "Code Deputies" to manage a community branch. This is exactly what I was hoping for and is a clear sign that EllisLab are dedicated to CodeIgniter and the community. Also the CI repo has been way more active over the last week.

Things are looking up.

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Rob Allport

2010-12-31

Glad things are looking up. I've been using CI for a couple of weeks now and absolutely loving it to be honest - definately speeding up my development time :)

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Montreal Web Design

2011-01-13

*sigh* good luck

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Brian Bien

2011-01-31

This post has a pretty negative tone, but with 2.0 released progress is looking promising with CodeIgniter Reactor

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2011-01-31

You're right Brian it was rather negative towards CodeIgniter but that is how I felt at the time. Whether this article or I helped things change or not, that change has happened almost exactly how I hoped it would. Reactor is great and I'm really happy to be part of it. :)

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Aditya

2012-10-28

CodeIgniter has excellent community and support , because of support i got in there forum i got to learn MVC based application from scratch , can't thank enough to the face they changed my career to good direction.

Complaining only makes one negative , rather we developer should think how we can contribute to better codeigniter!

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Patrick Stewart

2012-12-05

@Aditya That was the whole point of the rant in the first place. Prior to the new changes and the implementation of the Reactor team, the community developers could not get anything included by submitting contributions to EllisLab meaning how can you make something better if the main dev's won't merge in your contributions. This has all changed now and EllisLab was true to it's word on making CodeIgniter better and stronger for the community. Sure it still is moving at a slower pace then some of the other frameworks that are taking advantage of newer features in the PHP core however it is stable and I have no doubt that it will see migrations to the newer features as time progresses and we owe this to to Phil and plenty others and to EllisLab for working with the community.

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